Sanman at Evinyl: Hello, this is Sanman one of the managers here at Evinyl and…

Alan Kellman: There's Big Al,…

Alan Kellman: another manager here at E Vinyl.

Sanman at Evinyl: we're here today to talk about something musical, but not an album or a song. We're going to talk about a movie called A Complete Unknown, which as we're recording is out in theaters, and it's about a fictional account or a biopic kind of thing of his years between 1961 and 1965. And we're not going to talk too much about the plot. I saw it about 10 days ago. Allan saw it last night. And we have not really discussed it in any detail.

Sanman at Evinyl: So, since Alan, you're had the most recent viewing, I'll let you start and give your thoughts and we'll see where this conversation goes.

Alan Kellman: Thanks yeah, it was a very entertaining movie and as somebody who loves Bob Dylan, it was great to see more about that era. And you don't know what's fictionalized and what's real, but it's still just really cool watching his interactions with Joan Bayz and here's something already. his girlfriend in the movie, they were calling her Sylvie. which was really throwing me off because he was famously romantically involved with a woman named Susie Routollo and…

Alan Kellman:

Sanman at Evinyl: Right. Right.

Alan Kellman: and he's on the cover of I think it's Free Will and Bob Dylan with Susie Routollo. I mean that's something I knew and they were calling her Sylvie in the movie last night. So, that threw me off a little bit. but okay, nevertheless, we know this wasn't a completely historical account. but, yeah, it was a very well-made movie. most all, what wasn't real. I wonder about the violence at the Newport Folk Festival. I'm skeptical about that. but, I also really enjoyed the interactions with Woody Guthrie. I always heard that he visited him on his deathbed but I wasn't aware that he visited him several times. So that was interesting. but mostly it was a well-made movie that I enjoyed and even if I didn't know who Bob Dylan was I think I would have enjoyed the movie. It was just a good dramatic movie.

Alan Kellman: Also interesting to see how Dylan was portrayed sort of as an a*** while he's brilliant and a genius and, a giant in his craft. which is of course what we know, I guess, but it was just interesting to see it, spelled out like that. And, also that Bob endorses the whole thing,…

Alan Kellman: which I guess is really no big surprise.

Sanman at Evinyl: Yeah. Yeah.

Sanman at Evinyl: So, it does have a fairly long running time, which movies tend to do these days, which is okay. I will give you Okay, so since you just saw it last night, I will tell you that you can find everything now in the world of endless information, you can find what's not, and that character is definitely the one you're speaking of, but they renamed her for some reason.

Alan Kellman: Of course. Right.

Sanman at Evinyl: And I think they were trying to say in a very obvious way, this is a dramatization. they didn't change Joan Bay's name to Jane, whatever. She was already famous,…

Alan Kellman: Yeah. Right.

Alan Kellman: Exactly. Why did they change the name of this one character?

Sanman at Evinyl: right? Okay.

Alan Kellman: And I looked it up and the response was that Dylan wanted to do that in deference to her. I mean, she passed away, I think, in 2011, but he said that she was a very private person and he Dylan thought he wouldn't have wanted her name to be out there in that context in the movie.

Sanman at Evinyl: Yeah. Yeah.

Alan Kellman: So they changed the name which just confused me throughout the movie, but

Sanman at Evinyl: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sanman at Evinyl: No, I listen, if you like music and whatever, you can't I mean, I'm not the idea of being a Dylan afficionado and we're probably going to record some other stuff on maybe a couple of his albums and talk about more of his work, but for this one, we're just going to talk about this film. so here's my view was my first take was that my niece who's 20 something years old went to see it with her dad who's a music fan and said nothing really happens and then my wife says after the movie nothing really happens and…

Alan Kellman: Yeah.

Sanman at Evinyl: I go how can you say nothing really happens between 1961 and 1965 because in the movie there's nothing on the screen they make reference to things but here's the thing that really got me and

00:05:00

Sanman at Evinyl: You can find out the whole thing leads up to him going electric, and that was a big thing and I didn't really know a lot about it, although of course there's been a ton written about it. but again I'm not an afficionado of his history and stuff. So there is a lot of this happened but not for this reason. But what I think was less obvious to me was that it was pretty apparent that he was leave, he was recording an album, with electric guitars, it wasn't like I don't they and…

Alan Kellman: Hey, yeah just one thought on all that

Sanman at Evinyl: I think in the movie I didn't really realize that they all kind of knew that that was possible.

Sanman at Evinyl: It wasn't like he surprised everybody. I think that that's the part I didn't go get that there was a certain anticipation that he was going to do that and they were trying to talk him out of it more than he and of course the folk fans reacted the way they did and that Yeah.

Alan Kellman: about the movie that just seems unrealistic. It's just that, the drums were on the stage, the bass amp was on the stage. I mean, h how could that have been a surprise? …

Sanman at Evinyl: So what I heard, and I don't want to dwell too much on this, but what I heard was it wasn't that they were opposed to electrical electric instruments. It wasn't that they wanted him to play acoustic. They wanted him to play those songs, I guess,…

Alan Kellman: blowing in the wind,…

Sanman at Evinyl: because Yeah. Yeah.

Alan Kellman: Mr. Tambourine Man.

Sanman at Evinyl: And I think there was this idea that it was because he was playing electric. and that's one of those things if you go back and go through the 10 things that were incorrect that they do talk about there were electrified instruments but that wasn't really what people were compl were saying you can't have electrified instruments. They were saying this is a folk thing and you're playing loud whatever rock music and…

Alan Kellman: Okay. Right.

Sanman at Evinyl: it was I think that's what I picked up from it.

Alan Kellman: Right. Johnny Cash played with electric instruments and…

Sanman at Evinyl: Right. Right.

Alan Kellman: that didn't bother anybody.

Sanman at Evinyl: Right. But he was such a hero but here let me just I want to go back to the premise of the movie which is a complete unknown. Right. which you could debate every lyric the guy writes you could delve into.

Sanman at Evinyl: he wasn't a complete unknown. His family and friends knew who he was, but …

Sanman at Evinyl: he was unknown in terms of where he was trying to get, his celebrity, whatever. But I think to me without That's true.

Alan Kellman: …

Alan Kellman: but you could even debate that though. Sorry to interrupt to his family and friends, he was Robert Zimmerman for sure.

Sanman at Evinyl: That is Yeah. Changed his name. Fair point. Again, he's an enigma, Everything is and some of that's put on and I think some of that's a sense of humor and some of that is I think every genius has a little social whatever maybe he believed he was in the circus or whatever he traveled with the circus or whatever he possibly believed that I don't know but anyway the thing that I thought was the most interesting to me was the idea that you're there when you

Sanman at Evinyl: hear these songs for the first time or that so there's scenes where even in the first scene when he plays the song for Woody Guthrie to just kind of go I don't know when you see somebody that good the first time right the imagine just that f not knowing who this guy is and then to hear that song or to hear him work out blowing to the wind in his apartment whatever like we know as these

Sanman at Evinyl: songs and just the way that the actors reacted to it and just to watch their faces just go like without going you're a genius Bob Dylan I thought that was really the kind of secret sauce of the movie was and…

Alan Kellman: Yeah, that's a good point.

Sanman at Evinyl: there's a scene at the folk festival I'm not ruining this is not spoiler alert by any stretch okay there's a scene in the folk festival where he's playing you …

Sanman at Evinyl: like a Rolling Stone for the first time, At least at the folk festival and somebody gets up and walks away. He go, "Yeah, I saw when he played that song and I had to go to the bathroom. what?

Alan Kellman: No, that is a spoiler alert,…

Alan Kellman: That's a huge part of the plot of the movie.

Sanman at Evinyl: No, I don't think anybody even notices that.

Alan Kellman: No, no, no, no.

Sanman at Evinyl: But also the other thing that's music history…

Alan Kellman: But of course, somebody screams, you're Judas. which of course is famous. Of course.

Sanman at Evinyl: which is the Al Cooper playing the Hammond organ so we'll talk a little bit about his music but when you go now when I hear that song what people say is if you listen to how he plays and you realize that he just sat in and I guess he has the sheet music he must have something in front of him…

00:10:00

Sanman at Evinyl: but all he knows is the chords. So if you listen to it now, his organ that is a little behind and it's almost makes the song. It's like It's just I didn't even know I never noticed it until somebody said it when they were talking about the movie. So, it's that kind of stuff where it makes you appreciate things a little bit more.

Alan Kellman: Interesting.

Sanman at Evinyl: And it also I had tears in my eyes when he played that when hes it's like wow it's such a I don't know man that's the beauty the power of music and that's why you here talking about these things and are so passionate about it but man I mean yeah because you realize I don't know it's when something's that good.

Alan Kellman: Right. Right.

Sanman at Evinyl: It's just that good and it change it's the first six minute pop song and whatever

Alan Kellman: Right. Right.

Alan Kellman: And that gets back to what you were saying before when to him, the artists reactions to him. And there was just one scene and I don't remember exactly in what appearance this was. I think he was just playing at some bar in Greenwich Village and…

Alan Kellman: Joan, who at that point was not on good terms with him, happens to pop in and watch him. I don't remember what song it was anymore, but you could tell that she's just like, I don't like this guy, but she listens to the song and she's just like, my god, this is so good.

Sanman at Evinyl: Yes. Yes.

Sanman at Evinyl: Yeah. Yeah.

Alan Kellman: And yeah, so when you say that's the secret sauce, I hear you on that I really appreciated that too.

Sanman at Evinyl: That's the answer to the question. nothing really happens. that's the answer because even they do make reference to the Cuban missile crisis and…

Alan Kellman: Right. Right.

Sanman at Evinyl: then he plays Masters of War. Are we ruining the movie?

Alan Kellman: Sandy. Okay.

Sanman at Evinyl: I'll tell people it's a spoiler alert. There's some spoiler alerts, but

Alan Kellman: Yeah. Sandy, That is the scene they just had.

Alan Kellman: Walter Kankhite on talking about the Cuban missile crisis and then Joan goes for a walk and stumbles upon Bob in some club and he was playing Masters of War.

Sanman at Evinyl: Yeah. No.

Sanman at Evinyl: That's that scene.

Alan Kellman: That was totally the same scene and…

Sanman at Evinyl: Yeah. …

Alan Kellman:

Alan Kellman: thanks for reminding me on that. right.

Sanman at Evinyl: if you're 21 years old and you've never heard Masters of War, right, and that scene, nothing happens. Because Yeah.

Alan Kellman: Yeah. Right. Yeah. I don't understand why people could say nothing happened. but even just from the whole thing that happened at Newport. I mean that's…

Sanman at Evinyl: Yeah. Right. Right.

Alan Kellman: which by the way that's not a spoiler alert. I mean this is just history. I mean, people who are most people going into this or at least lots of people going into this movie know you're not supposed to not know it. but I mean that's something happening. and I wonder about the violence at Newport.

Alan Kellman: I mean I guess it was Alan Lomax who punched Albert Gman. Okay, spoiler alert.

Sanman at Evinyl: Can I You want me to tell you…

Alan Kellman: Sorry. Yeah.

Sanman at Evinyl: what the real story cuz I read it and…

Alan Kellman:

Alan Kellman: Yeah. Yeah.

Sanman at Evinyl: then Okay.

Alan Kellman:

Alan Kellman: Go ahead. Did that really happen? I don't think so. I'm going on the record saying I don't think that really happened.

Sanman at Evinyl: According to whatever thing I watched,…

Alan Kellman: Go ahead.

Sanman at Evinyl: Mojo, it was like a Mojo, whatever, some website that has like this. the 10 things in the Dylan movie, follow us and whatever, subscribe. So, according to that thing that I watched, they did have a fight, but it was about the way that he introduced is it Paul Butterfield, the blues band was okay.

Alan Kellman: So they had a fist fight.

Sanman at Evinyl: So, it was the way that he was mad at him about that. it happened, but it wasn't for the reason that it appears in the movie. Yeah.

Sanman at Evinyl: And it's also true that Pete Seager was trying to cut the wires or something. That is something that was Yeah,…

Alan Kellman: I had heard that. Yes.

Sanman at Evinyl: that's something that I think was happening.

Sanman at Evinyl: But yeah, so again, it's not a documentary, But I think they were trying to say this there was a lot of stress around the whole time of this music

Alan Kellman: Right. Right.

Alan Kellman: It's not intended to be

00:15:00

Sanman at Evinyl: if you talk about we can get into the history of rock music and where it was at that point in time and how it wasn't like this dominant thing and folk music was there and

Sanman at Evinyl: I don't think we have a folk bin. Maybe we should put one in the I don't think so. we better put one in. Okay. So I will just add that we are recording these as not necessarily episodic but we're just adding a feature here where we're going to tag all of these recordings. Then this is the first one we're tagging as movie review. So yeah, sure.

Alan Kellman: But I thought he did an acoustic set and then an electric set. But that did happen on his European tour. in…

Alan Kellman: what you read about what was real and what wasn't real, did they mention anything about him having started with an acoustic set?

Sanman at Evinyl: I don't recall,…

Sanman at Evinyl: but I think that's true.

Alan Kellman: Okay.

Sanman at Evinyl: I mean, I think they do, Johnny Cash tells him to go back out in the movie. yeah. So, …

Sanman at Evinyl: there were definitely a lot of spoiler alerts here if people don't know, because I didn't know the details, but I don't think it really matters. I don't think…

Alan Kellman: I yeah,…

Alan Kellman: I mean it matters a little bit to me…

Sanman at Evinyl: if it's like No,…

Alan Kellman: because I'm always testing my knowledge and…

Sanman at Evinyl: no. I'm saying it doesn't.

Alan Kellman: Do I not have it right? And I was under the impression there was an acoustic set at first and then he came out and did electric. But I could be confusing that because I know for a fact that's what happened in Europe when he went to Europe.

Sanman at Evinyl: Yeah. I think the other thing and…

Alan Kellman: So Right.

Sanman at Evinyl: yeah, we'll wrap it up and I was saying it doesn't matter in terms of it's not a spoiler one way or the other, right?

Sanman at Evinyl: It's like we've established that this is a dramatization,…

Alan Kellman: Right. Right. Right.

Sanman at Evinyl: not a documentary. But the thing that there's one very fast scene in the movie where he gets a check, So you get that he's getting popular, but then all of a sudden, he's not necessarily a starving artist either. And I think that, once you have that luxury of, the security of, you're not, cuz we can have a whole conversation about his current way he tours and whether he's not a crowd-pleaser or whether he cares or not, But I think clearly at that point, he's trying to be liked. He's trying to develop a fan base. He's trying to have a career,

Sanman at Evinyl: And I think that this idea that I'm going to just do what I want to do and I'm not going to give the people what they want so to speak I think that evolves right but All right.

Alan Kellman: he rejects it. he doesn't want it. He's not comfortable with it. so you see that and I wouldn't even call it an evolution. It's just an about face.

Sanman at Evinyl: I think that…

Alan Kellman: Right.

Sanman at Evinyl: again, We're basing it on what the movie is and whatever. I think what my view of it is is that he didn't want to be pigeonholed as this,…

Sanman at Evinyl: And he didn't want to have to go up and give Yeah.

Alan Kellman: For sure.

Sanman at Evinyl: I keep saying give the people what they want, but I think it's like, even through his career, he's always done, taken little turns and stuff like that. and I think for some of these artists, he's not the only artist who said, "I'm going to do this or I'm going to break up the band and do a solo record or whatever." I think they're looking to shake things up and maybe, it's a creative thing or whatever. But, I often wonder, we can leave it here and we'll definitely be talking more about this artist for sure. maybe in our next recording, but I think it is part of his persona and I think it's part of his marketing that he's this,…

Sanman at Evinyl: enigma and I just think maybe that's just who he is, but I don't think it's all contrived or whatever.

Sanman at Evinyl: But I also think and I've been told and I think he has a really good sense of humor and I think some of this stuff is sort of like him it's like pranking the rest of the in a certain way I'm whatever.

00:20:00

Alan Kellman: Yeah. Right.

Sanman at Evinyl: I don't know if that applies to whether he was wanted to play, electric guitar at a folk festival, whatever. But I think there is a certain amount of you can't pigeon hole me and whatever. But I think it's also I'm making fun of these people because they think all I can do is that I don't know, maybe I'm Yeah.

Alan Kellman: Yeah. Yeah.

Alan Kellman: No. No. Yeah. No. I think so. I think so.

Sanman at Evinyl: we will wrap this up and while we were planning on this, there are lots of Bobin movies. I don't know if we're going to do anymore.

Sanman at Evinyl: We may do other movie reviews for sure that are musical.

Alan Kellman: I'd like to see the Scorsesei one.

Sanman at Evinyl: Yeah. Yeah. And I started watching Don't Look Back, which that's a documentary from the 65.

Alan Kellman: Okay. Sure.

Sanman at Evinyl: That's also around, but that's him at that time. But all right. So this was good. thanks everybody for listening. Of course you can check out our bins and check out our Patreon and all these other things that we have. And for now we are going to say I'm going to get two thumbs up from the Allen Sandman from the E vinyl management team. And with that we will sign off and say bye-bye.

Alan Kellman: Take care everybody.

Sanman at Evinyl: Hold on Alan I got to stop this recording. Okay, good.